We all know that they played the biggest part in ITV`s downfall.
Is Max Crabtree still alive and if he was What impact would he have on todays british wrestling?.

I know Greg Dyke also contributed to the downfall of the TV showing and yes one show costs alot of money to the TV companies noone saw it coming the wave of the overseas promoters making there mark on our TV
I`m sure that if you take a look at promoters today the two I would go for a tv deal would be W.A.W and All Star but it`s NWA-UK who have struk lucky.

We all know that they played the biggest part in ITV`s downfall.

Don't agree. It was basically down to Greg Dyke (and upmarket advertising with views _base_d more on pre-'85 US wrestling than the UK.)

The Crabtrees did directly cause Joint Promotions to lose its exclusivity to TV. Their Daddy-centric direction may have attracted young kids, but it alienated enough of both adult fans and professionals as to open up a gap for a serious competitor. Dixon/All-Star filled that gap. So when TV was up for renewal All Star naturally got a slice of the action.

IMHO if the TV rights had been up for renewal a year later, or if the Sky-assisted WWF boom had happened a year earlier, British wrestling would probably have had its contracts renewed and remained on TV for a good many years (although WCW would have replaced the WWF in the US specials in about '89). Probably TWA and Premier would have got their bouts on TV also.

Worth noting: AFAIK, the CWA stayed on German/Austrian TV until it packed up in '97.

Is Max Crabtree still alive

Last I heard, yes.

and if he was What impact would he have on todays british wrestling?.

Minimal. He sold Joint/RWS on to the late Ken Joyce in about 1995.

If wrestling was still on TV he would probably have passed the company on to son Steve (Greg Valentine). Unless they'd been able to work out a deal to stop Davey Boy Smith from going back to the states and got him to carry on being Big Daddy's replacement, RWS would today be a medium-small northern promotion.

Yet again, statements made by people who think they know what they are talking about!

I think you will actually find that Max Crabtree took wrestling viewing figures up.

I suppose that you think that he was not responisble for promoting some of the best feuds around.

Dave Finlay v Danny Collins
Dave Finlay v Marty Jones
Skull Murphy v Chic Cullen

He was also responsible for putting some great forigen talent on UK TV.

The reason that wrestling was taken off of TV had very little to do with Max or his booking abilities.

Firstly, Greg Dyke took over control of programming. Mr Dyke, who openly hated wrestling did not want it on his network. We all know that what Mr Dyke wants he gets, just look at the programs that have gone from the BBC since he took over there.

Secondly, WWF were making moves to roll out their product worldwide. They were selling their product to television companies at very low rates to ensure a buy up. I have heard that it was as little as £750 for a one hour show. Now when you consider that tapping a live show cost the television companies over £15,000 for a british show who do you think that they are going to go with.

Thirdly, Brian Dixon was given a shot at the TV and whilst he did give time to rising stars like Robbie Brookside, the majority of his shows were made up with great wrestlers that had already been seen on TV whilst working for Max Crabtree. Now that is not to say that these wrestler did not deserve to be on TV again, but look at it from a TV perspective, all they were seeing was the same faces.

Whilst Max may have had his faults, he does not deserve to be labled as the man who killed British wrestling on T.V. that _title_ goes fair and square to Greg Dyke.

British wrestling followed a similar pattern to WCW.

Dyke killed British wrestling on tv. Same as how Jamie Kellner killed WCW by cancelling it from TNT and TBS.

But it is also true that British wrestling was in the toilet anyway, due to the Crabtrees pushing the same guys over and over. Big Daddy and Haystacks just couldnt cut it any more, but they were kept as stars. Likethe old guys in WCW. But there were talented workers on the UK mid and under cards. Finlay, Rocco, Regal, Brookside, Collins, all were having great matches, but Daddy stayed on top, and wrestling died.

I think you will actually find that Max Crabtree took wrestling viewing figures up.

Correct - he attracted a large audience of younger kids. But he also pissed off enough core fans (and wrestlers) for Brian Dixon to be able to cash in by providing a serious upmarket alternative. So thus the Crabtrees set the ball rolling for Joint Promotions to be dethroned from its position as the number one wrestling company in the UK.

Firstly, Greg Dyke took over control of programming. Mr Dyke, who openly hated wrestling did not want it on his network. We all know that what Mr Dyke wants he gets, just look at the programs that have gone from the BBC since he took over there.

So? Lots of ITV executives were none too keen on the wrestling. For instance, John Bromley, World of Sports producer, claimed in a 16/1/90 interview for the Times, that although the wrestling itselfoutdrew Granstand, it tarnished the credibility of the show so that non-wrestling sports fans refused to tune in to the other slots.

But the fact is, if the WWF boom had been going on actually during the contract renewal (rather than a year later), Greg Dyke would have had a great deal of difficulty justifying the cancellation. He went to a great deal of trouble shifting the timeslot around to cut down the viewing figures. But how would he have been able to explain cancelling a wrestling show just as another wrestling show was taking off enormously ???

WWF were making moves to roll out their product worldwide. They were selling their product to television companies at very low rates to ensure a buy up. I have heard that it was as little as £750 for a one hour show. Now when you consider that tapping a live show cost the television companies over £15,000 for a british show who do you think that they are going to go with.

These statistics are more germane to Joint Promotions' negotiations with Sky in '89. In any case, the WWF went with Sky in '89 and ITV switched to WCW in 89/90. (hence my opinion that WCW specials would have replaced the WWF specials in about '89.) so what the WWF would or would not have offered ITV is pretty irrelevant. ITV eventually gave WCW the self-same Saturday teatime slot during 1992-95, very much on a "S--t, we really f---ed up there, didn't we?" kind of basis.


Whilst Max may have had his faults, he does not deserve to be labled as the man who killed British wrestling on T.V. that _title_ goes fair and square to Greg Dyke.

I never said that Max was responsible for the cancellation of ITV wrestling. But it *was* the Big Daddy orientated product that was basically responsible for Joint Promotions losing exclusivity to ITV two years before the end.

(And also the fact that whereas All Star is still going strong in 2003, Joint Promotions shrivelled up once Big Daddy quit and Davey Boy Smith got cold feet on becoming the new Big Daddy.)

p.s. no, sorry, I don't have MSN

But it is also true that British wrestling was in the toilet anyway, due to the Crabtrees pushing the same guys over and over. Big Daddy and Haystacks just couldnt cut it any more, but they were kept as stars. Likethe old guys in WCW. But there were talented workers on the UK mid and under cards. Finlay, Rocco, Regal, Brookside, Collins, all were having great matches, but Daddy stayed on top, and wrestling died.

What the hell are you on about ???

1) British Wrestling didn't die - as this board and its parent site are living proof.

2) The first few years after TV were actually a great period in British Wrestling history - largely thanks to All Star and Kendo's second run at the top.

3) Finlay, Rocco, Regal, Brookside and Collins were all with All Star and all having top-of-the-bill programmes even while meanwhile the last of the Big Daddy era was being played out by Joint.

Which reminds me:

I suppose that you think that (Max C) was not responisble for promoting some of the best feuds around ... Dave Finlay v Danny Collins

Which was in point of fact promoted by All-Star (in '89 for the British HeavyMiddleweight _title_.) Or did you mean Collins vs Jim Breaks?