In my opinion there is really no old school or new school. Just good or bad wrestling. If you look back some of the wrestlers from the 70's and 80's such Rollerball Rocco, Adrian Street, Jackie Pallo etc. who would not look out of place today. There was also some pretty poor wrestlers as well. Them same can be said for the current era with the added point there is probably less wrestlers now with a the high standard of fundamental wrestling ability as there was 2 decades ago. It's not a slur on the current crop of wrestlers but in reality there's not that many quality training schools or trainers out there.

It's not a slur on the current crop of wrestlers but in reality there's not that many quality training schools or trainers out there.

Whilst this may (or may not, I don't know, at least not from experience) be true, but the bigger problem is that wrestlers aren't really encouraged to deliver well-thought out, logical, good wrestling matches. Instead, to "entertain" the fans in the simplest way(s) possible, or to put it a different way, in the overly-obvious panto/spotFU ways.

I don't buy that a logically built, deep, smart wrestling match "wouldn't entertain" the crowd (Austin was the biggest star of "the modern era" this side of the world and would work deeper, smarter wrestling matches than anyone before him in the WWF). Of course there's no real evidence in this country (we do have a much younger audience than America on average I'm certain; how many young children do you see at an American show compared to, percentage-wise, a British show) and it was the character of "Stone Cold" that got Austin over, obviously. Even if you look at older British Wrestling, it was _base_d around exhibitions of technique rather than coherent stories, build and depth in/between matches. From the way David explained it in a previous thread, it may have indeed been *looked down upon* because "Oh, that's so the Americans can cover up their legitimate shooting ability" (which is a ridiculous way to look at it, of course, and probably not true...).

As an example... Recently was the first time in almost two years of asking trainees where I found an example of a trainer (Majik) giving a trainee (Jetta) a tape featuring lots of high-end matches to learn from (or even just encouraging them to get tapes of people/matches). That, sadly, says it all...

We still need clearance here on what is "New School" and what is "Old school" from the thread starter! I'm considered "New School" I believe, but my training and _style_ would be considered "Old School" (colloqually speaking) as I am very mat _base_d.

Help us out here Archangel - theres a mine of information waiting to be spewed forth to you!

Jaqk - I give out a LOT of tapes of excellent quality matches for my students to study - this is just the first time you've heard of it!

Majik

majiks tate library is not just for his students either ive pilfered from it from time to time

must admit the whole new skool old skool thing is an enigma to me i came from a mma/sombo background so when i stated i tamed down what i knew worked it and with help from guys like maj andre baker and john ryan put together a _style_ that would be concidered fairly old school but as i grew in experiance and confidence it was harder and harder to keep my big monkey a$$ on the ground so i guess im old skool who enjoys the odd flirtation with new skool but on saying that to keep in character i wonder if my _style_ is sunday school?

Well I guess the American _style_ wrestling gained the popularity with fans over here because the rules allow for more excitement in many ways.
The old British wrestling I remember there was rounds and you have a count for the opponent to get back to his feet.
Also there is greater use of the ropes and the five second count with tags.
All this and the general glitz and glamour and over the top doing everything in a big American way lead the way.
I guess it is a case of moving with the times and giving people want they want.
In my time I've seen British wrestling leave prime time ITV and after that Dr Who,both programmes I grew up watching.

I guess the reason why the FWA is doing so well is that they are forward thinking and not living in the past.
They don't even do the easy thing and book old has been former WWF/E talent which would draw the punters,instead they book the new up and comers like CM Punk.

You'll certainly get some feedback from the forums on this subject. David Mantell will probably be able to help you out a little.

Rather than spend time rehashing old debates, may I recommend the following threads:

http://forums.1stopwrestling.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1148
http://forums.1stopwrestling.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=266
http://forums.1stopwrestling.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=179
http://forums.1stopwrestling.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=69

Also generally check out the Archived Topics forum for more interesting grist.

Perhaps I should copy across some of this material

Personally I lay the blame for the attention given to the FWA squarely at the door of Finlay Martin, longtime editior of PowerSlam magazine.

As far as I can make out, Fin Martin seems to *hate* everything about old-school British wrestling. He's always constantly slagged it off in his magazine. So when a promotion comes along that presents itself as a rejection of traditional British wrestling culture, then Fin gets behind it to the point of kayfabing for the "new school" side of the FWA's "new vs old" storyline.

Meanwhile, Fin takes great care not to give any coverage to All-Star, TWA and Premier, even tho all of these three are far bigger and busier promotions than the FWA. Except maybe the occasional letter slagging off old school promotions, such as the very tasteful one a year or two back that made sarcastic remarks about Alan Kilby's deafness (charming!)

Notice how PowerSlam waxes lyrical about the likes of Alex Shane, Scott Parker etc, but never gives so much as a whisper of attention to James Mason - success story with Michinoku Pro tho he is. Mason gets censored out of PowerSlam. Too tarred with the old-school brush for Fin.

In America, Robbie Brookside is something of an underground legend. Low Ki is a BIG fan of Robbie's match with Johnny Saint from 1988 on ITV. But for years Fin was careful to give Brookside as little coverage as possible. This issue, for the first time ever they printed a photo of Brookside, but were careful to show one of him on the receiving end, busy selling Doug Williams's move.

Fin goes to ridiculous lengths to indoctrinate his readers about how "boring" technical wrestling supposedly is - he even slags off the great Bob Backlund! Just a couple of months back, he got one of his columnists, Patty There to suggest that William Regal should stop using his "antiquated" British _style_ of wrestling if he wants to get on in the WWE. Well, Fin and Patty, for your information, Regal was hired by the WWE precisely BECAUSE he wrestles in that _style_. The American wrestling busness actually massively respects the British wrestling _style_ - it's proper wrestling!

PowerSlam is basically in the business of Telling People What To Think. (Just like the NME does with music) So if all the idiots who swallow the lies and distortions printed in PowerSlam read about FWA supposedly being the hot thing in the UK, well naturally they fall for it hook, line and sinker.



IMHO for what it's worth:

I think a young rookie should concentrate on developing enough technical skill to improvise a decent match. Then, later on perhaps, they can learn to bolt on other things such as spots, psychology etc.

The way it used to be done was that guys would wrestle each other in clean matches in order to build up their reputations as great master scientific wrestlers and so get themselves over with the crowd. Then when the time was right, they'd do some babyface vs.heel matches.

It can be difficult to tell what Brian Dixon's really into - he does have a tendency to shift with the wind. If he thinks he can do well taking the high road, then he'll go upmarket with lots of good technical action in the best traditions of British wrestling - see All-Star's "Golden Era" from the mid '80s to circa '94. If he's feeling a bit more desperate then he starts on the gimmicks, the Power Rangers cash in, the tribute guys and the silly "sponsored wrestler" deals (remember Robbie Brookside's stint circa '85 as "Ben Truman"?).

Dixon seems to have a fairly mercenary attitude to product - as long as it works well, it's allowed. It's a pity tho. A bit more imaginative businessmanship on his part and All-Star could have built up further on their late '80s triumphs and possibly become one of the most powerful promotions on the planet in the 90s - perhaps even competeing against the WWF and WCW on American soil.

Why bother listening to a handful of trendy morons who can't think for themselves but have to have Fin Martin and PowerSlam telling them what to think?

The bigger UK promoters still largely cater for the traditional fans and are far more interested in someone who uses the technical _style_ to maximum effect. They promote more shows than the "New School" promotions and while they don't pay much, they still pay more than the tiny Americanised groups (some of whom don't pay at all). So most of the available work in the UK is with them anyway.

Furthermore if you ever get to America, backstage in the WWE they are massively impressed with Brits who wrestle in the traditional _style_ and it's quite a passport. Just ask William Regal. And if you want to steer clear of the police state that is the WWE locker-room, then bear in mind that technical wrestling is now the hot thing amongst an increasing number of avant-garde US indies, notably ROH.

And then of course there's Japan itself where if you're really good at the technical _style_ they will WORSHIP you - and pay you a pretty decent amount too. And you get a helluva lot more creative freedom in Japan - good money for less arse-kissing.

Just remember - a gang of three or four vocal FWA marks at a show do not make an effective barometer of public taste. Ignore the trendies, wrestle technical. And you can still entertain well even in the technical _style_ - see Danny Boy Collins, Dynamite Kid, Johnny Saint etc.

British Wrestling certainly isn't struggling.

If it ever was struggling in recent times, it was around '97, when it had to adapt to the new experience of being underground for the first time in several decades. When even Brian Dixon stopped promoting full-time for a spell. When the fledgling new school scene saw no reason to even acknowledge the UK's past wrestling heritage and simply went about making American wrestling with British accents ...

Since about '99 the British scene has been floating along quite stably, not necessarily going anywhere, but by no means sinking. Biding its time, waiting for a route back into bigger worlds.

The British scene is slowly rebuilding itself just like it did in the late 40s/early 50s. Back then it was recovering after the shutdown during WW2, (as well as the decay and disrepute of the final years of All-In). These days its after the WWF/WCW invasion and the succesion of 90s booms in American Wrestling over here. But it's the same situation all over again.

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If anything it's American Wrestling that is in serious trouble at the moment. American Wrestling has essentially evolved itself out of existence - the only remaining direction for it to go down is to abandon matches altogether and just turn into a soap opera about a bunch of paranoid egotists who diss each other and get into fights a lot.
(just like in real life! )

The American scene has been reduced to one major promotion that has totally lost all steam, wiped away all its heritage (and indeed nearly all US wrestling heritage) in fits of nepotism and iconoclastism (go check the dictionaries, Mr Big and DG!) All that's left of the American Big Time are two unwatchable TV shows with loads of cheap soap opera and scarecely any wrestling in them (largely inspired by a man who actually HATES wrestling, one Vince Russo), plus some other equally dire support shows. And a couple of growing-up-in-public corporate indies (OVW, the late HWA and other "developmentals") Oh yes, and a vague go-nowhere attempt at a competitor with little certain future.

Fans on both sides of the Altantic are utterly pissed off with this sad state of affairs, and because of this, the British scene is actually starting to perk up, as people turn away from US Sports Entertainment and are looking for some kind of Alternative Wrestling. The likes of ROH can fill this marketplace gap in America. The traditional British circuit does the job over here. And of course there's imported puro tapes, but since you need an aeroplane ticket to see puro live, they're very much a luxury. So ROH and old-school fill the gap on either side of the Pond.

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Conclusion:
American Wrestling is struggling

British Wrestling is recovering!!!

As far as American Wrestling goes the rot really set in during the 1950s, especially in the Northeast territory (the future WWWF/WWF/WWE.)

You look at old American footage from the 60s/70s/80s, it's mostly the exact same "high impact _style_" you see later in the Sports Entertainment era. Every move done as a spot. HUGE amounts of rope-bouncing (preceding practically every move.)

Really the whole territories/kayfabe era of the late 50s/60s/70s/early 80s US scene was just a partly-evolved version of later Sports Entertainment. Wrestling in the States was inevitably doomed to eventually degenerate into the mess we know and cringe at today.

In Britain, the general public knew that, work or shoot, most wrestlers were legit-skilled serious athletes, so wrestling had a lot more respect over here than in America. Even in the US, legit champions like Strangler Lewis and Lou Thesz were respected by the US public as legit sporting heroes.

But similar public respect was never given to the Funks, Harley Race, Ric Flair, Bruno Sammartino or Pedro Morales. (Although Verne Gagne and Bob Backlund had some respect due to their amateur backgrounds.)

The real problem in America was that, (especially after the bursting of the "TV bubble" of the late 40s/early 50s) promoters decided to niche-maket wrestling towards the most unsophisticated audience they could create. Blue-collar factory workers, rural bumpkin farmhands, trailer-park trash, unassimilated ethnic minorities, you name it. They basically gave up on more sophisticated audiences and just targeted the lower rungs of society.

Also, as Lou Thesz once observed, skilled technical shooters are less inclined to take orders and quietly do as they're told than tanking entertainers. So having a non-shooting talent _base_ made the promoters'/bookers' work easier.

Anyway, the 1950s was the turning point in the US business. As I've observed in the past, they were having their own version of Old School vs New School backstage.

On the Old School side:
Lou Thesz, NWA World Heavyweight Champion, arch-hooker
Sam Muchnick - NWA President, top St Louis MO promoter, traditionalist.

On the New School side:
Buddy Rogers - mouthy heel, crowd-worker, extremely scathing backstage about shooters.
Antonino Rocca - dropkick master, babyface, spot performer, (bit of a sad case really)
Vincent J McMahon (Vince Snr) - Northeast promoter, father of Vince McMahon Jnr

The battleground:
Control of the direction of the NWA World _title_

With American wrestling moving more and more towards a pure entertainment _style_, McMahon wanted the _title_ for a big Rocca vs Rogers feud. Thesz refused to job his _title_ to either man, especially not Rogers, and he and Muchnick believed that the _title_ should be held by the most legit wrestlers around. McMahon spent the 50s trying every trick in the book to get the _title_ for his two boys.

Thesz may not have won the war, but he won the battle. Rocca was never NWA champion. An aging Rogers eventually beat Pat O'Connor for the belt in 1961 (after McMahon threated to pull out of the NWA unless he got his way), flopped as champion and the promoters had to come crawling back to Thesz to restore the _title_'s reputation. But eventually McMahon got his non-shooting champion sucess story with Bruno Sammartino and the rest was history.

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Now consider the following:

Lou Thesz => Brookside/Mason/McDonald/Sanders/ any skilled old-school UK wrestler you care to name.

Sam Muchnick => John Freemantle/Scott Conway/Brian Dixon
(if they were all mates and the latter two shared Freemantle's attitude)

Buddy Rogers => Alex Shane

Antonino Rocca => any shallow spot performer you care to name (esp. aerialists)

Vince Snr => Mark Sloane et al at the FWA and any other anti-traditionalist New School types.

You get the picture???