Simple. One who is proficient in "Shoot wrestling" - ie legit Lancashire Catch as Catch Can Submission Wrestling (which is not the same thing as amateur free_style_.) aka "Real Professional Wrestling" .

There are higher levels than shooter, namely Hooker and Ripper. Hooker being total mastery (in offence and defence) of all the most crippling shoot holds/moves, Ripper being a Hooker with an extra-sadistic attitude and the use of injury-orientated strategy. The best place in the world to learn up to these levels is Wigan. The old Riley's crowd - Bert Assirati, Billy Robinson, Billy Joyce, Karl Gotch, Ernie Riley, John Foley, Francis Sullivan, Tommy "Jack Dempsey" Moore etc- were all Rippers, as of course was Billy Riley himself. So were the Belshaws who trained at Charnock's.

Ok, then I have to ask, what does shoot-fighting proficiency have to do with worked-pro-wrestling ability? Yuji Nagata was crushed in 20 seconds by Mirko Cro Cop in a shoot fight on December 31st of lats year, does that mean he's not a good pro wrestler? Of course not he's the best men's heavyweight worker on the planet.

I agree with Jack here, the Shoot wrestling that you describe has no place in the world of British wrestling and I do not believe that many people would pay to watch it either.

However I do believe that to bring reality back to British wrestling and make its wrestlers respected again, trainee wrestlers should learn some of the art of shoot wrestling, if only to hold their own in a real fight.

The era that David talks about was a very closed shop in British wrestling’s history where the only way to gain respect was to be either a former amateur wrestler or be trained at the Wigan gym.

Having wrestled many amateurs and would be ‘shooters’, their ability to do the professional job is not enhanced by there amateur/shoot training.

First up,

... what does shoot-fighting proficiency have

I said shoot-wrestling, not shoot fighting.
Shoot wrestling is best summed up as "Real Professional Wrestling"
(although that de_script_ion tends to cause confusion and accusations of kayfabing when used on wrestling internet boards)

Shoot fighting is a hybrid martial art/sport mixing shoot-wrestling, sombo, kickboxing and various other things. It was invented in the 1980s by Satoru "Sammy Lee/Tiger Mask" Sayama and is not relevant to the point I was trying to make.

I agree with Jack here, the Shoot wrestling that you describe has no place in the world of British wrestling ... The era that David talks about was a very closed shop in British wrestling’s history where the only way to gain respect was to be either a former amateur wrestler or be trained at the Wigan gym ...

or similar gyms around the country, some owned by ex-wrestlers (eg Billy Chambers', Dave Finlay Snr's Carrickfergus Club etc)

IMHO this was extremely positive for British wrestling and frankly was what made the British scene and the British _style_ of wrestling so great and so respected internationally- the modus operandi of building one's performance skills on a foundation of shoot ability from which influence and inspiration could be drawn for techniques.

All this incidentally _link_s back neatly to the parallel I drew earlier with the US scene in the 1950s and Buddy Rogers and Antonino Rocca. America had its own version behind the scenes of Old School versus New School in the Fifties - _base_d on exactly the same issues. At that time the debate was over the direction of the booking of the NWA World _title_.

On one end of the tug-of-war there was champion (and super-hooker) Lou Thesz plus NWA president Sam Muchnick, who both marked out for the earlier, serious 20s/30s Strangler Lewis era and felt that the champion should be a brilliant legit wrestler of whom the business could be proud.

On the other end, Vinnie Mc Mahon's dad Vince Snr, who wanted the _title_ for a mega-feud in the Northeast between two massively over non-shooters, Antonino Rocca (hapless dropkicking spot-performing Italian babyface) and Buddy Rogers (crowd-working motormouth heel, known backstage for his disrespectful attitiude to shooters and legit wrestling - a sort of 50s US version of Alex Shane really.)

It became quite a power-struggle, with Thesz flatly refusing to drop his _title_ to the two non-shooters, and McMahon threatening to drop out of the NWA unless he had his way. It went on until Thesz got fed up and quit as champion in '58 (dropping the _title_ to ex-amateur champ Dick Hutton).

Thesz and like minded souls may have lost the war as US wrestling continued to evolve down an entertainment-orientated direction, but at least they won the battle - Rocca was never NWA champion. A past-his-prime Rogers eventually got the _title_ in 1961 (owing to threats of withdrawl from the NWA by McMahon) but proved to be a box office flop as fans outside the Northeast couldn't take this _style_-over-substance performer seriously as champion.

Furthermore Rogers's shooter-dissing ways finally caught up with him one night in '62 when two hookers, Karl Gotch and Dr Bill Miller, ambushed him gave him a thorough working over in the dressing room, during which Gotch broker Rogers arm. The NWA eventually had to dump Rogers as champion and swallow sufficient humble pie come crawling back to Thesz to become champion again to restore credibility. Gotch, who hooked Rogers' arm, also did well for himself in 1963, winning the revived old Ohio-AWA _title_ from Don Leo Johnathan, losing it in a _title_ unification match to Thesz in '64 in a well-and-truly Old School "worked shoot" bout. Rogers, on the other hand, had to retire injured.

Nevertheless, the US scene had moved away from technical/shoot-influenced wrestling. The massive success of non-shooting strongman WWWF champion Bruno Sammartino and journeyman-grade NWA champions like the Funks and Harley Race, as well as the declining numbers of shooters and virtual extinction of Hookers in the US business sealed American Wrestling's fate to degenerate into the farce of "Sports Entertainment"

And that, boys and girls, is how American Wrestling ended up becoming CRAP.
Don't let it happen here.

I came on here for the first time tonight and read all the discussion regarding respect old school/new school etc. I came into the wrestling business when it was really tough and luckily there were lots of girls around to show me the way.Chic was one of the first of the guys who showed me friendship and amazingly some of his fantastic wrestling skills.
His knowledge of this business goes far beyond what anyone could learn in a lifetime.However, you had to earn your respect by listening, learning and saying very little until such time you were allowed in to the "clique".I don't think it had anything to do with your wrestling ability or how long you'd actually wrestled i believe it was more like what kind of personality you had.
No one likes a smart arse and unfortunately today there are plenty new lads and a few girls who are just that.Some have great ability while others will never make it as long as they have a hole up their arse.BUT who will ever take the place of Rocco,Fit Finlay,Chic (i know you'll read this)Doc Dean,Robbie Brookside,Danny Collins i could go on and on...... I haven't met one wrestler in the "new school" (i hate that saying) that are good enough to clean their boots let alone take their place,and YES some have remarkable wrestling skills but lack the charisma of those lads and that makes me very sad because i want this business to go on forever and i want to be around it forever but what chance does it have of surviving when it is so easy to get into and there's very little respect for anyone in it.
Wrestlers from our era for want of a better word were put through all sorts of wind ups, apprenticeships and trained till we couldnt get up the next morning.So pardon me if i don't kiss the arse of some of the new arrivals because i think you need more than a short wrestling course to make it as a top wrestler.A personality would be nice. :twisted: