Who agree's that the only way forward is to ditch the pantomine and rip offs?

The rip offs - without a doubt. No question that from what I have seen that they are attempting to replicate established stars without revealing that they are tributes to the public.

Pantomime? Depends what you define as pantomime. I've seen The Mummy wrestle and was entertained. Wrestling is extremely diverse and as such I believe that such diversity should actually be actively encouraged in the UK. How dull would it be if every promotion wrestled pure clinics? It'd be great for a bit but would soon get boring.

I genuinely think that for every American Dragon and Benoit there needs to be a Hurricane or even a Doink. I'd like to think I entertain every age when I wrestle; from the little four year olds to the eighty year olds and everything in between. This is, in my opinion, how it should be. Wrestling is pantomime in some aspects and so you cannot take it out - you'd be left with a shell of an entertainment.

BTW - good topic Rob!

Majik

I have to agree with you there Majik. I personally like to see different aspects at a wrestling show. If a show was purely strict wrestling with no other aspects considered then it would be very plain. Although I don't feel a show should be total "pantomime" there need to be certain aspects there to keep the show entertaining to the diversity of crowd it is designed for.

Having attended a tribute show the other day it seemed to entertain the audience it was designed for, as the crowd was louder than many others I've heard. However the wrestling standard wasn't good, but the crowd were there and that proved that for their target they are doing the right thing.

Pantomime does need to be ditched if wrestling and wrestlers here want to develop as best as it/they can... because the pantomime BS just isn't wrestling. A simple WRESTLING show wouldn't be "plain", it'd be GOOD (so long as the wrestlers put meaning, depth, build etc. in their work), and ENTERTAINING, because it's WRESTLING and anyone who attends a wreslting show wants good wrestling, or they wouldn't go to a wrestling show.

Well, yes and no. Yes, there is a market out there for "pure" wrestling in it's classic form which you are a fan of Jack. No doubt about it.

However, semantically speaking, "wrestling" is no longer viewed in that classic format and most fans now expect more from their shows than technical encounters. Unfortunately for fans such as yourself, if companies were to put out these kinds of shows, the fan_base_ would get smaller as this _style_ of wrestling is unfortunately outdated over here.

Your average fan at a British wrestling show now expects good entertainment through forms other than the actual expertise (talking martial arts/sports wise) happening in the ring. Your average fan wants showmanship, charisma and outlandish characters. I for one, as a fan growing up, was an enormous fan of the comic book characters that were offered to me. From Kamala to Warrior - I didn't care about their wrestling skill - it was all about character.

In a contemporary environment there is now a fine balance between characters and the ancient art of ring wrestling. It's a balance that is extremely hard to find and you cannot please everyone. But the fact remains that the pantomime element has been integrated (and some may say successfully) into professional wrestling shows in the UK.

The bottom line is (I CANNOT believe I just use that phrase ) that a WRESTLING show (as you stress Jack) is very rare nowadays in the UK; in fact I cannot remember the last time I saw a pure wrestling show advertised. However, I have seen and been involved with many pure wrestling matches that were surrounded by other _style_ matches on a single card. This is the way it is and the way it will probably continue.

For every Liger/Kosaka/Dragon fan there's going to be a Rock/Hurricane/Taker fan and so on.

That's just one of the things I love about the pro wrestling biz - the diversity involved. I don't think it's a problem - I embrace it personally!

My tuppence anyhow!

Majik

As far as I can remember, a successful wrestling show has always been comprised of various types of matches. There have always been comedy aspects of a good show, but there also have been the kinds of "serious" matches which folks like Jack and myself really get into. These matches should be the centrepiece of a good show and a good promotion. Championships gain credibility when consistantly put on these wrestlers, which should go without saying.

However, were "pure" wrestling to be the only thing on a card, it would attract me and 15% of the wrestling public on a regular basis. Granted, a new wrestler looking to improve his skills won't gain anything in this department by participating in comedy matches, but he will learn more about the art of comedy matches and that is something. Neither will a wrestler improve his skills by participating in "streetfight" or "hardcore" _style_ matches, but these are an acceptable part of a good show as well provided there is a story leading up to the match (otherwise it's dumb).

Wrestling is a curious "sport". It's a combination of sport and entertainment (although not SE!). I believe audience is diverse in age range and looking for a good time, a good story and a credible product but on by credible performers. It takes a lot of planning and a lot of everybody being "on the same page", but it can be done. At least I believe it can be done.